Fear, loathing and respect: Judith Collins bows out after 24 years in politics, says people ‘don’t like a strong woman’

And she rates Christopher Luxon as the best boss she has had in Parliament.

Sir John Key and Sir Bill English were very capable prime ministers, she said.

“But Chris has actually given me my head.”

Luxon gave her two “dream jobs”, Attorney-General and Defence, among a myriad of other portfolios, including Space, Digitising Government, Science and Technology, and the Public Service.

“He’s let me get on and do what I need to do. He’s given me the portfolios that I wanted.

“And I’ve been able to make a difference with him, and he’s backed me to do that.”

She said she was one of the few politicians who had never studied politics.

“I’ve just lived it and practised it, so from my point of view, you work out what the place is and how to get things done.

“And what I found over the years is the more you do cross-party, the more you can actually achieve.”

One of her early experiences of cross-party work resulted in what she now regards as one of her proudest achievements.

Using only her responsibility as associate health spokeswoman, she was instrumental in getting an inquiry by the health select committee into the use of Agent Orange during the Vietnam War.

She did it by first getting the support of her caucus, which was difficult, and then the support of Act, the Greens, New Zealand First, United Future and Labour.

“These veterans and their families had again been pushed aside, told they were wrong, things hadn’t happened when they had, and basically information hidden from them, which is a disgrace.”

The inquiry resulted in increased support from the then Labour Government to veterans and affected children of veterans and an apology from the Government.

“Now that is a huge achievement for a backbencher,” she said quietly but with characteristic attitude.

“So of course you expect people to be a bit frightened of someone who could do that in the first term, but I did.”

It was also a good lesson to backbench MPs, that it is possible to achieve a great deal.

“You can do an awful lot. You just have to be prepared to work across parties.”

She said she and former Labour minister Phil Goff were still co-patrons of the Vietnam Veterans’ Association Children’s and Grandchildren’s Trust.

She has consciously worked across parties where she could, be it on developing AI policy, chairing the regulations review committee in Opposition, getting legislation through on space infrastructure or briefing the Opposition on the Defence Capability Plan in Government.

“I felt like I’ve made a difference there, and having got buy-in from other sides of the House, it means that they’re far more likely to become embedded, and not just a fly-by-night type of policy.”

Collins, the MP for Papakura, is leaving Parliament with less controversy than when she entered it 24 years ago.

Back in 2002, she challenged sitting National MP Warren Kyd for selection in the new seat of Clevedon, and won.

She said some people thought it was outrageous, but Key did exactly the same thing in the same year against sitting MP Brian Neeson in Helensville, and it wasn’t so outrageous.

“I’ve given up on the double standard nonsense,” she said.

“People don’t like a strong woman, then they don’t have to like me.

“But I’m not intimidated by anybody and I doubt whether I ever will be.”

Collins’ rehabilitation this term followed a disastrous spell as National Party leader that ended almost 18 months later with a vote of no-confidence in her, and the subsequent election of Luxon.

She made it clear over many years that she wanted to be the leader, having stood against English in 2016 and Simon Bridges in 2018.

Despite National polling reasonably well in Opposition at the start of the Covid pandemic, the caucus was factionalised.

Collins supported Todd Muller to roll Bridges in 2020. But she was then prevailed upon as the emergency option after Muller had a mental breakdown and resigned 53 days later.

It was a situation Collins both helped to create through her support for the coup, organised primarily by Nikki Kaye and Amy Adams, and then helped to stabilise.

But they are clearly nightmare memories.

“My advice to anybody is, if you are in a party that is in a civil war, and you are in a pandemic, and the Government’s on the rise, and you get a phone call at 9 o’clock at night from two people who have never been your closest friends, to say you really have to now be the leader - and by the way, you’ll be the third leader in seven weeks - my advice is really clear.

“Don’t sleep on it, take your spouse’s advice, but even then, just to make sure you don’t do a silly thing, pack your bag and go overseas immediately and just let them sort it out themselves.

“It was a shocker,” Collins said.

“But I am proud of the fact that I never once gave in and I got up every day and never failed to do my media.”

Collins was a ruthless operator with a killer instinct right from the start of her political career.

In her first term, she played a key role in the resignation of Lianne Dalziel as Immigration Minister over misleading comments about the deportation of a 15-year-old Sri Lankan girl.

In her second term, she attacked Labour Associate Education Minister David Benson-Pope over claims he had put a tennis ball in a former student’s mouth and taped his hands to a desk in the early 1980s.

(A police investigation found that the incident likely happened but no charges were laid).

“I don’t like bullies,” Collins said.

In Benson-Pope’s case, she said she didn’t like his behaviour towards others.

“I just didn’t like the man.

“And when I found out about these other matters, yeah, I would put them forward. You always expect me to stand up to bullies. And if that’s taken as tough, well, that’s just something I’ll always do.”

She rejects a suggestion that when she was a minister, she was seen as a bully, particularly in her dealings with blogger Cameron Slater.

In 2009, Slater published the name of a public servant he believed was responsible for leaking information on Bill English’s housing allowances to Labour.

The name was supplied by Collins, and drew death threats aimed at the public servant.

Five years later, Collins was stood down as a minister when an email from Slater surfaced, suggesting she was gunning for her Serious Fraud Office director Adam Feeley.

Collins said that had been very misleading and that the best response was no response.

“Just don’t get down on it because once you start to try and respond to it, you end up getting covered in mud.

“My advice is from experience, to try and rise above it.”

Collins was cleared of wrongdoing around the SFO and reinstated as a minister in late 2015 for another two years.

But it wasn’t until National returned to power in 2023 that she was made Attorney-General and Minister of Defence.

In Defence, getting sign-off on the $12 billion Defence Capability Plan over four years was the highlight for Collins.

“That was 14 months of sheer hell for me trying to get that through,” she said.

“It’s not easy when you’re trying to double the defence budget.”

Her lowest point was the sinking of the naval vessel Manawanui off Samoa. She stands by her criticism of “deeply misogynistic” armchair admirals who blamed the incident on the commander being a woman.

There are three court martials underway at present, the commander and two men.

“Nobody presumes that they are there because they’re men.”

As Attorney-General, she cited two high points.

One “huge highlight” was having a major role in settling the private litigation of the Nelson Tenths Trust, involving restoring 3068ha of land to descendants of the original owners, including the Abel Tasman Coast Track Great Walk (with continued public access) and a $420 million payment.

The other highlight was a technical but important change to require all secondary legislation, regulations made by ministries, departments, and the executive council, to be published with the related statute on the legislation website.

Before that happened, it was often difficult to know what the law actually said.

It came to her attention when she was chairing the regulations review committee in Opposition that the law was often unknown.

When she got the chance, she got funding to make the change.

“It is a very good thing. People talk all the time about access to justice. But if you can’t find the law, how can you then be subject to it?”

Collins is delighted to have been described as an orthodox Attorney-General.

“Courts need to be orthodox, too,” she said.

She defends the judiciary against accusations of activism.

“I think it’s easy to make those sorts of claims. But the point is that if Parliament is very clear in what it wants, the courts can interpret it the way that Parliament intends.

“If Parliament wants to leave big fat gaps, expect you’re going to find them. Don’t leave gaps. Pretty easy,” she said.

“I’m a black letter lawyer. I think the law has to be accessible.

“It should not be a surprise to people what the law is.

“It should not be a surprise to Parliament what the law is.“

She got really annoyed when laws ended up being interpreted by the court in an entirely different way from what Parliament may have intended.

“Now that happens mostly because the laws have been left with these great big fat gaps in them.”

Collins is excited about leading the Law Commission, a publicly funded body formed in 1985 to review old laws and develop new ones in New Zealand, either at the suggestion of the responsible minister, in this case Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith, or on their own inquiry.

It often looks into complex issues, such as laws relating to evidence, property relationships, DNA, alcohol, and tikanga.

One of its next reports to be delivered is one on hate crime, which was commissioned by the current Government.

Goldsmith last month commissioned a new report on automated decision-making by Government agencies, which will involve coming up with a framework for consistency.

Collins, having had 18 ministerial portfolios, including Digitising Government, has a keen interest in the subject.

Another area of expertise she expects to be used in the new role is her legal experience in company law and taxation.

“So things like director’s duties and companies, liabilities and duties, those sorts of things,” she said.

The other commissioners are Dr Mark Hickford, who specialises in iwi–Māori state relations, land and water rights, natural resources and justice, Geof Shirtcliffe, who specialises in corporate transactions, securities and corporate governance and Professor Claudia Geiringer, a public law specialist at Victoria University.

Collins is “absolutely” confident her appointment would survive a change of Government, should it happen at the November election.

“I’m a lawyer. That’s my first love, the law.”